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M-am imbolnavit

28/12/2009

Un foarte bun prieten de-al nostru care este crestin si cu care suntem implicati in lucrarea de evanghelizare CaleaMaestrului.ro a scris un articol pentru voi. El este american, dar este casatorit aici in Romania, stie foarte putin romaneste de aceea articolul este in engleza. Si-a exprimat dorinta de a fi postat in engleza (daca aveti nevoie ca el sa fie tradus va rugam sa ne comunicati aceasta intr-un  comentariu).

Joh 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Forgive me for writing to you in English.  I realize that God has gifted many Romanians with an aptitude for languages, and many of you understand English well.  For the rest of you I offer my apologies. There are many wonderful articles on this site written in Romanian.

I’d like to write this article as a testimony of the Living and Powerful God, of whom it is written: “God is love”.  I’d like to tell you of His power of love, manifested in His children, as they love one another.

I was recently taken by a virus and very sick.  After three days I could take it no more, and we called an ambulance.  The hospital is around 10 minutes from where I live, and yet after waiting for the ambulance 3 hours, a Christian friend sacrificed his time and money, to bring me and my wife to the hospital with a taxi.  Another Christian friend brought my mother-in-law to baby-sit our daughter.  After arriving at the hospital, I was quarantined for 2 nights and 1.5 days.  There’s not a lot to do when you’re in quarantine.  However, I had much less pain and really enjoyed the rest and quiet.

After my wife’s experience of giving birth here in Bucharest, I have very low expectations of hospitals.  I did however have a very comfortable bed.  It was interesting and important to note that the bed, and the other beds in the room, were donated by world vision, which is a Christian organization.  It was not donated by and atheist charity organization.  Without God you do not have true love.  Or much of a basis for understanding it for that matter.

When it was time to go home, a Christian woman stayed with our baby, so that my wife could assist me home from the hospital.  Upon arriving home, my Christian wife, served and cared for me, even though she is pregnant and has our daughter, therefore making her quite tired.

Many Christians prayed for us and gave us money and medicines.  So many asked if there was anything they could do to help.  It was very cold and my wife was exhausted, so I asked a brother to do some shopping for us, as I needed some special food in my poor state of health.  He traveled from another side of the city, far away, and did the shopping for us.  When he entered our door, I saw what bad health he was in.  He had a bad cough and should not have risked his life for me like that.

So many Christians called or wrote notes, expressing their love and concern, as well and offers to help, and assurance of their prayers for us.  Real Christians do love one another.

What is my point in telling you all this?  Here it is: the greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.  Failure to do so is sin and deserves God’s wrath, which will be poured out upon the unloving in hell.  Before I was a Christian, I used to tell my girlfriend “I love you” and stuff like that.  But what I really meant was I love ME, I want you.  It was selfishness pure and simple.  You may say, “I know really nice people who are not Christians”.  You may, but do you know people who have loved God above all else, and then their neighbor as themselves?  People who are ‘loving to others’ are only doing what they are supposed to.  This won’t get anyone to heaven.  God tells us in the Bible that if we know to do good (ex. Loving others) and don’t do it, it is sin.  So when you stand before God on the day of judgment, you will not only be accountable for your transgressions, but for your omissions (stuff you neglected to do).  Let’s see if you have any transgressions.

Have you ever….

Lied?

Stolen (regardless of the value and including illegal software etc.)?

Used God’s name (the God who gave you life) in vain?

Had sex outside of marriage? (Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.)

Hated anyone?

Been selfish?

Unthankful?

Had or supported an abortion and therefore committed murder?

Let’s look at your omissions or negligence.  Have you always

Loved God above all else?

Loved your neighbor as much as you love yourself?

Done the good that you should have?

Been thankful?

Been honoring to your parents?

This isn’t a balance system where you put your “good” on one side and your bad on the other.  Good, is just doing what you’re supposed to, it doesn’t merit you eternal life.  Now here is God’s love towards us.  We have transgressed and neglected God’s law.  We have not loved as we should.  We have a conscience and know better.  God can therefore judge us and punish us eternally in Hell.  That would be good and just of Him.  Yet God in love, demonstrated that love, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.  We broke and neglected God’s law, Jesus paid our fine.  God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ.  He always loved God first, and loved His neighbor as He ought.  Then He was crucified in our place on the cross.  Three days later He rose from the dead.  And now lives forever, soon to return.

Based on Christ’s death in our place, you can be justified (Made righteous in the sight of God in a legal way.)  God commands you to repent (turn from your sin) and trust in Christ’s blood.  Believe the gospel (good news).  Believe the love of God towards you.  God will give you a new heart that loves Him, and others.

Eze 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Look at the beuty of these verse:

1Jn 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jn 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jn 3:16  Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

I had the joy of seeing many people who trust in Christ and are able to have confidence that they have passed from death to life, because God has worked in them, and now they love the brethren (other Christians).  May that soon be you too.
With much love,

Jonathan DeSeno 1 John 2:5, 1 John 3:1

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26 comentarii leave one →
  1. Dada permalink
    29/12/2009 5:08 pm

    Mda…asa e ! numai iubire in sanul crestin…Nu stiu daca mesajul meu va ajunge la cel care a scris acest articol,daca e nevoie il scriu si-n engleza.
    Am cateva observatii, de bun simt zic eu. 1) Nu stiam ca intr-un spital, calitatea serviciilor medicale tine strict de …cat de comod e patul. Eu cred ca tine mai mult de tratament, de personal, de aparatura existenta. E drept pe astea nu le pot dona crestinii. Asta nu ar mai insemna iubire, nu/. Ar insemna sustinerea stiintei si nu se poate permite asta. Asta e cu adevarat important…comfortul(mintii daca e sa ma intrebati pe mine), ca de sanatate, deh, va rugati la dumnezeu si poate, poate scapati nu?
    2) Eu am rude, absolut toate crestine(o exclud pe mama si pe tatal meu vitreg) si nici una nu a venit sa ma ajute cand eram in spital. nici macar una! Si la fel a fost si in cazul mamei mele. Cand a murit tata, toate rudele, crestine evident, nu au venit decat sa bea si sa manace. I-a durut undeva ca mama a ramas vaduva, cu un apartament de achitat, cu 2 copii si cu un serviciu de 2 lei(ca tata nu o lasa sa munceasca). Ei au venit sa boceasca si sa primeasca pomeni. Motiv pentru care restul lunii noi vindeam borcane in piata ca sa ne cumparam de mancare. Asta e iubirea crestina. Sa nu mai pun la socoteala ca popa nu a inceput slujba pana nu a primit o donatie considerabila.
    Acum sunt casatorita. Evident problema mea de sanatate a revenit si a trebuit sa fiu din nou spitalizata. Nasii mei de cununie sunt ultra-religiosi. Fac donatii la biserica, dau pomeni, se roaga in biserica 5-6 ore pe zi si cu toate astea nici macar un telefon nu au dat sa vada daca mor sau nu. Cand sotul meu i=a rugat sa ne imprumute cu niste bani pentru ca tratamentul meu e foarte costisitor au zis ca nu au ca trebuie sa mearga in pelerinaj si le trebuie bani pe acolo. Ceea ce este descris mai sus nu se intampla in viata reala, iar daca se intampla se intampla nu pentru ca sunt crestini ci pentru ca au spirit civic, asta nu tine de religie, tien de bunul simt.

    • 30/12/2009 7:35 pm

      Salut „Dada”. Sotia mea e prea ocupata sa ajute ma cu Romaneste. Daca tu poti, scrii in Engleza. Am inseles ca-i scris, dar vreu sa inseleg mai bine sa nu gresesc. multumesc pentru comment.
      Jonathan 1 John 2:5

      • Dada permalink
        31/12/2009 1:23 pm

        Ok Jonathan, i’ll translate it to you.
        Reading your article I made some observations. First of all I believe that in a hospital the thing that matters the most is the treatment, the quality of service and not a comfortable bed. I am astonished to read that you were impressed by the bed and not by the medical staff that provided you the treatment. Second of all the situation you described, the people that made everything in their power to help you, this is not what all religious people do, it’s not a standard attitude. For example, when I was younger I found out I had a tumor. I was devastated but I didn’t put my faith in God, I put in doctors, I’ve rationalized my options and went on with the treatment the hospital prescribed, I didn’t pray, I didn’t go to church, none of this.
        My whole family, except my mother and step father, is christian(orthodox). None of my relatives came to the hospital, none even made a phone call ‘til after I told them I’ll be ok, that the treatment worked.
        Same situation happened when my mother got sick. I was 16 years old, I had to take my mother, all by myself to a hospital in Iasi, because in my hometown doctors told me she stands no chances of getting better since we came too late to them. I never gave up and my mother still lives. No family member nor friend helped.
        even before these experiences, when I was 7, my biological father died. At the funeral everybody just gossiped, drank and ate. Nobody cared that my mother had to children to raise, a lousy job(part time), an apartment to pay. No relative gave us anything, but all came to tell my mother what to buy. So after the funeral we were left with no money, no food and no one to care. So we sold jars to the market to have money for food. Also at the funeral, the priest asked my mother for money if she wants him to attend as it was Easter when we buried our father.
        Now I am married, I have a wonderful husband and a lovely daughter. In spring I found out my medical problem reappeared. Our godfathers( I don’t know how do you call it…anyways they’re also my sister and brother in law) are very religious. They pray in church 5-6 hours a day, they live like true christians, they don’t say bad words, don’t eat some type of food, they don’t even watch tv. My husband asked them to borrow us some money(as they earn a lot, believe me…a lot!) as my treatment was too expensive for us for the time being. They refused him as they had to go on a religious trip and they might need money to buy some things. The situation you described is desirable but not valid for all religious people.
        I am an atheist. I became one after i started reading a lot. No one forced me to become one. Although in school I was forced to attend religion classes.
        I believe that altruism and love for one-another should come from education and not from fear of God’s law. If you are being good because you fear hell then you are not at all good, you’re just acting. I heard tons of explanations from religious people that say that they’re good because they fear the divine law. Also a guy after hearing about the „There’s probably no God(Now stop worrying and enjoy your life)” campaign supported by R Dawkins said that now every pedofile and criminal feels free to harm people around himself. This is absurd! So most people would like to do harm, but don’t do it because they fear god?

  2. Bogri permalink
    04/01/2010 6:55 pm

    Dada,
    rudele tale”crestine”sunt crestine cu numele!Asa cum toata tara asta e crestina cu numele!Nu-mi vorbi mie de religia ortodoxa,[text neaprobat]! Parastase si pomeni!Cat mai multe pomeni!

  3. Bogri permalink
    05/01/2010 12:25 am

    Apreciez ca mi-ati cenzurat doar expresia cu pricina.Cand o spui in engleza,parca nu suna a injuratura.Dar ce am spus,ramane valabil.Adica nu prea dau doi bani pe religia ortodoxa.pt.ca ROADELE ei se vad pe toate planurile(ca doar se studiaza in scoala,nu?)Pentru aceasta religie probabil c-a scris Eminescu:”religia-o fraza de dansii inventata,etc”.Nu zic ca nu sunt si crestini sinceri in aceasta religie.Banuiesc ca Dumnezeu isi are oamenii lui peste tot.Chiar si printre atei,sau liber-cugetatori(in al caror numar ma aflu si eu).

  4. 06/01/2010 3:23 pm

    @Dada…Thank you for taking the time to translate your comment for me. I appreciate it a lot. Firstly, let me express empathy towards you for the hard life you’ve had. Cancer is very difficult and painful. My sister had cancer twice. I’ve watched her writhe in pain. She wrote this http://www.caleamaestrului.ro/archives/552 when she had cancer the second time. I understand that it is very costly and painful for everyone, especially the one with cancer.

    You started your comment by talking about the treatment at the hospitals vs. the donated bed. My main point in mentioning the bed is that it was donated by a Christian organization not an Atheist organization. Christians give. Atheist’s, well… let’s just say I’ve not seen much charity on their part. I did however appreciate the care. My expectations for medical care have been greatly lowered since living here in Romania. My wife gave birth at a large hospital here in Bucuresti, and it was not a pleasant experience. Where I was, the people however were nice to me by Romanian standards and I am grateful.

    Here is a point you seemed to miss. Look closely at this verse again.

    John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

    Christ’s disciples (another word for Christian) have love one to another. Real Christians showed love to me, and I am grateful to God for that.

    The inverse of this verse could also be true. You can tell who is not Christ’s disciple, because they don’t love one another. When someone is born again (see John 3:3) God gives him a new heart that loves. When God saved me, He gave me a new heart, and the selfish wicked heart of stone I had was thrown away. Now it was just natural that I love God and love others.
    There are many religious people, even in the name of Christianity, who are not born again, they do not have a new heart that loves. The Bible warns us of false Christians over and over again. It seems like you’ve been able to spot a „few”. It is very clear, that most Orthodox are not Christians in the sense that they are following Christ. Rather they are following traditions than the Bible. This applies to non-Orthodox „Christians”, and other religions as well. Jesus said that all men will know that we are his disciples if we have love one to another. You may not know anybody like that. You may not know any real Christians. But I do, and am grateful to God for them.

    As far as your religious relatives… I don’t know them and can’t really judge them. I would ask you this though: If you are an Atheist, and there is no God, no absolute right and wrong, why is it wrong what any of these people did to you? It’s just being consistent with your atheistic world view. Survival of the fittest/smartest/most selfish. There is no reason to truly love one another. Other than selfish motives. But true love doesn’t seek it’s own (see 1 Corinthians 13). It is selfless, not selfish.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    You said:” I believe that altruism and love for one-another should come from education and not from fear of God’s law. If you are being good because you fear hell then you are not at all good, you’re just acting. I heard tons of explanations from religious people that say that they’re good because they fear the divine law. Also a guy after hearing about the “There’s probably no God(Now stop worrying and enjoy your life)” campaign supported by R Dawkins said that now every pedofile and criminal feels free to harm people around himself. This is absurd! So most people would like to do harm, but don’t do it because they fear god?”

    Your statements are confused. I think you need to better understand the gospel. In the article above, I asked:
    „Have you ever….

    Lied?

    Stolen (regardless of the value and including illegal software etc.)?

    Used God’s name (the God who gave you life) in vain?

    Had sex outside of marriage? (Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.)

    Hated anyone?

    Been selfish?

    Unthankful?

    Had or supported an abortion and therefore committed murder?

    Let’s look at your omissions or negligence. Have you always…

    Loved God above all else?

    Loved your neighbor as much as you love yourself?

    Done the good that you should have?

    Been thankful?

    Been honoring to your parents?”

    This is to show that we are guilty and deserve hell. You have a God given conscience and know right from wrong whether you have read the Bible or not. You know right from wrong and therefore can be held accountable. If you have done wrong you deserved to be punished. God is far holier than us. So He sees our sins as a very big deal. Just look at the punishment: eternity in hell. Once you understand that you deserve that punishment because of the sins you are guilty of, that makes God’s love to you amazing. That Christ would die paying the penalty of your sins so you could be justly forgiven and reconciled to God, is AMAZING LOVE. Repent and believe this good news. Here’s a problem I perceive:
    1. We think we are good.
    2. We think we are owed something. For example, just because someone is rich, doesn’t mean I deserve their money. Mr. Becali is pretty wealthy, but he doesn’t have to give any of it to me. This is important in so many ways. This mindset effects our governments, our marriages, and our relationship towards God. If I think somebody owes me something, and they give it to me, I probably won’t be very grateful, because I think they owe it to me. If in reality I’m not owed this good, I will be in truth, very ungrateful. You are married so can probably understand this. We often have expectations of our spouse. We think there are certain things that they have to do. Maybe you think your husband needs to fix the sink. So when he finally does, what might he hear? ” It was about time.” Maybe your next door neighbor has a broken sink. Your husband hears about it and goes over and fixes it for free. What might he hear? „Thank you so much, you are such a wonderful man, etc.” What makes the difference? The expectations, the thinking we are owed something. God doesn’t have to do us good, but He does. He certainly didn’t have to leave heaven and come to earth, live a perfect life in the face of temptations. He didn’t have to be crucified for your sins… but He was. Then He rose from the dead, and is coming back soon. How will He find you? Ungrateful, or repentant and thankful, trusting in your only hope, Jesus Christ. I write this to you with much love. Please feel free to reply with any questions. Also my wife will be happy to talk to you on email: nihilwithoutdios@gmail.com, or even meet you. And maybe it will be easier for you two to speak your own language.

  5. 06/01/2010 8:32 pm

    I got distracted and forgot to make this clear.

    1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

    This verse tells why we love God…because He first loved us.

    • Robotu' de servici permalink
      06/01/2010 9:46 pm

      @Jonathan si Andrea
      What do you mean „we love God…because He first loved us”? What is connection between these two instances?

      • 07/01/2010 1:38 pm

        I shared that verse because is appears that Dada misunderstands why we love God. She wrote: „If you are being good because you fear hell then you are not at all good, you’re just acting” Therefore I felt it important to make it clear that the primary reason we love God, is because He first loved us. In God’s plan of redemption/reconciliation He wins us to himself by showing His love to us. God’s love towards us was most clearly manifested in that „while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
        Look at these verses:
        Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
        Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
        Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
        Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
        Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
        Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

        I would also recommend reading the whole chapter of 1 John 4 so you can understand the context of the verse I used. It’s so beautiful. Thanks for the comment and for being so kind as to write to me in English. Multumesc frumos.

      • Robotu' de servici permalink
        07/01/2010 7:06 pm

        @Jonathan si Andrea
        What is the logic connection between the two facts? Why „Therefore I felt it important to make it clear that the primary reason we love God, is because He first loved us”? Logically, there is no connection – a love sentiment it is not mandatory to be reciprocal. Why we must love him if he loved us first? This is a textbook [i]non sequitur[/i].

        Then:
        1. Christ is divine in nature. Christ is God. So Christ is immortal.
        2. Christ resurrected. So he was dead for 3 days – this is not dyeing! A human dies truly, so being resurrected is like cheating death.
        3. There was peoples that died worse (with greater ordeal) than Christ, and did not resurrected. So is not the ordeal the motive of redemption.

  6. 10/01/2010 3:09 pm

    @Robotu’ de servici
    Before you accuse me of being illogical, I suggest you read the context again.

    „I shared that verse because is appears that Dada misunderstands why we love God. She wrote: “If you are being good because you fear hell then you are not at all good, you’re just acting” Therefore I felt it important to make it clear that the primary reason we love God, is because He first loved us.

    In English, when you see the word „therefore” It’s good to look at the context to see what is is there for. Otherwise you are creating a straw man, by your statement. Look at the verse upon which my statement is quoting:

    „1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.”

    If you read the context in the Bible, you will see that Christians love God because He first loved us. Unlike your conclusion, it is not mandatory that you return God’s love. You can choose to continue in your sins, and pay your debt to justice yourself. Justice will be served. Either you will be punished in Hell, as your just recompense, or you will respond to the undeserved mercy, love, and forgiveness God offers you. You can be justified, by repenting and trusting that Christ (who is sinless) died on the cross in your place. Then as we say here in RO…Hristos anviat. He’s coming back soon, for your own sake, please repent and and believe the gospel today. Be reconciled to God.

    • Robotu' de servici permalink
      10/01/2010 6:13 pm

      @Jonathan si Andrea
      I did not accused you of being illogical (proof: I posed a question because it is possible that I did not comprehend the connection even it is exist such connection).
      However, the biblical context is irrelevant here. You made an affirmation that implies a causality – we love someone because that person loved you first. By stating „we” I presume that you refer to all persons that believe in Christ. But to validate the causality by affirming that all christian love God because this is the motive given by the Bible is false. Frankly, I don’t think that there is a wo/man that love God because an verset told him/her that this is the motive (God loved us first). Love is a complex sentiment, that does not have an precise and exact cause, but a sum of causes that interact. A person could love God because it feels his greatness, or his h=justice, because he is perfect or other reasons – but all are precluded by dogma that build this feeling (the toggle point it is not discrete, but continuous).

      However, it is possible that this is not the case and you used „we” as yourself (eventually with someone close to you; like a wife). But in this case, are you sure that you love God because he loved you first? Not because he is great/perfect/loving/just? To me is seems to trivialize the love because you love God for loving you, not because a real reason (like something worthy). Anyone can love you – but you love back just for this reason? To me is like lack of respect („I don’t think you have any quality, but I love you too because you did first and I am grateful for that”).

      I hope that I make myself understood better. I do not have good English skills…

      • 10/01/2010 11:06 pm

        @ Robot
        Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate your graciousness towards me by carrying on this conversation in English. I could talk to you in Romanian (not with great grammar) but writing is even harder. Thank you. In regards to your response:
        The Bible verse and it’s context are not irrelevant as that is what I was quoting. We (Christians) love God because He first loved us. You challenged that verse/statement so here is some more evidence:

        Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
        Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
        Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

        Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

        Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
        Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
        Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
        Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
        Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
        Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
        Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
        Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
        Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
        Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
        Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

        Here’s some of the points I’m trying to make using these texts.
        -God’s love towards us is from before the foundation of the world (He loved us first).
        -We are so sinful (before conversion) that we are not even looking for God, we are doing the opposite and being fools denying the obvious. Or simply making a idol, a god of our imagination. Rather than seeking to find out who God is, sinful man seeks to make God who he wants him to be (this includes the folly of Atheism, as Atheism is just closing ones eyes to reality, because of ones morality)
        -also it’s a little late, but even though English has something like 500,000 words, we don’t have many for love. In Greek we have more words for love, which would help you understand the kind of love God has. Agape is this highest form of love, and is far greater than the lust we often try to pass off as love. At the end of this post I’ll post 1 Corithians 13 which defines Agape love.
        -thanks again, your doing great with a second language. I’ll pray for you tonight.

        Capitolul 13

        1. Chiar dacă aş vorbi în limbi omeneşti şi îngereşti, şi n-aş avea dragoste, sunt o aramă sunătoare sau un chimval zângănitor.

        2. Şi chiar dacă aş avea darul prorociei, şi aş cunoaşte toate tainele şi toată ştiinţa; chiar dacă aş avea toată credinţa aşa încât să mut şi munţii, şi n-aş avea dragoste, nu sunt nimic.

        3. Şi chiar dacă mi-aş împărţi toată averea pentru hrana săracilor, chiar dacă mi-aş da trupul să fie ars, şi n-aş avea dragoste, nu-mi foloseşte la nimic.

        4. Dragostea este îndelung răbdătoare, este plină de bunătate: dragostea nu pizmuieşte; dragostea nu se laudă, nu se umflă de mândrie,

        5. nu se poartă necuviincios, nu caută folosul său, nu se mânie, nu se gândeşte la rău,

        6. nu se bucură de nelegiuire, ci se bucură de adevăr,

        7. acoperă totul, crede totul, nădăjduieşte totul, suferă totul.

        8. Dragostea nu va pieri niciodată. Prorociile se vor sfârşi; limbile vor înceta; cunoştinţa va avea sfârşit.

        9. Căci cunoaştem în parte, şi prorocim în parte;

        10. dar când va veni ce este desăvârşit, acest „în parte” se va sfârşi.

        11. Când eram copil, vorbeam ca un copil, simţeam ca un copil, gândeam ca un copil; când m-am făcut om mare, am lepădat ce era copilăresc.

        12. Acum, vedem ca într-o oglindă, în chip întunecos; dar atunci, vom vedea faţă în faţă. Acum, cunosc în parte; dar atunci, voi cunoaşte deplin, aşa cum am fost şi eu cunoscut pe deplin.

        13. Acum dar rămân aceste trei: credinţa, nădejdea şi dragostea; dar cea mai mare dintre ele este dragostea.

  7. Robotu' de servici permalink
    13/01/2010 8:00 am

    @Jonathan si Andrea
    Ok, no problem.

    Regarding the comment:
    1. Loving someone because he/she loved us first (no matter what kind of love) it is not corresponding to reality. Yes, a person can say this. But is simply false. Humans react to something and give a feedback, but that response is based on information perceived, experience and mental structure of one individual. It is not love for love’s sake (??? dragoste de dragul dragostei, cam asa ceva). Effectively, no person can love another (or concept) because it is loved. For a biological being, it is a nonsense. Like „art for art’s sake” – another naive concept. Simply put, this does not correspond to observable reality. Yes you can love God because he/she is great, perfect, just, etc, but a person has an mental frame for this love, not just an informal response. Even if that the case (automatic reaction response) then it is certainly a blind mechanism implemented and a such response it is not dignifying for a deity (it is more likely a robotic-like response, especially when it is agape love).

    2. Then every person, even you, has an idol. You seek God, read the Bible, but from a point forward your mind attaches associations and concepts based on experience (and yes, completes with imagination). So the concept of God becomes a mental frame in your mind, a representation that reflect a person fears, desires and biases. That it is the way mind works. By your definition, an idol. This model can be closer or not to the model in the Bible, but not identical (don’t forget that those who wrote the Biblie had their own models!!!).

    3. Atheism it is not what you wrote. An atheistic person it is such because he does not believe in the existence of a god, lacking proofs. Do you really think that a christian woke up in the morning and said himself „I want to murder/rape/steal/etc and God’s law prevent me for doing these, so I deny his existence to make those things and I am an atheist from now on”? Simply put, this is retarded – why he seeks confirmation??? An atheist has morals like every other persons (like proved by the great number of atheists that are model citizens – and, for US, prisons statistics – the percentage of atheists in prisons is vastly lower that those of Christians). And it is not closing eyes, but analyzing reality: do we have an objective proof of God?

    4. Lust is sexual attraction, not love. Love was never redefined as lust (only maybe metaphorically, which it is not an proper term that persons use generally, especially in the context that we talk now – „love for money”=greed, for example)! And yes, it is that „agape” love (a love in the spiritual sense). But even that love (from a god) cannot provoke a response sentiment without an automatic mechanism (like said before), and that is already vanity, not agape. If it is not an automatic mechanism, then it is not existent regarding human mind.
    Humans are capable of agape (in the sense of parental love, but with or without the family correlation), but that arise also from mental mechanisms that are a response to the surrounding environment, education, experience and mental structure.

  8. Robotu' de servici permalink
    13/01/2010 8:21 am

    @Jonathan si Andrea

    We are so sinful (before conversion) that we are not even looking for God, we are doing the opposite and being fools denying the obvious

    Obvious it is not a good criteria for analysis. It is obvious that the Sun revolves around Earth, but in reality this is not the case. Also, in quantum mechanics, a lot of „obvious” thing are not such obvious. A such criteria for classification is useless.

    • 19/01/2010 11:34 pm

      You can easily find these verses online if it too challenging in old English.
      Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
      Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
      Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
      Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
      Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
      Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
      Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
      Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
      Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
      Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
      Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
      Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
      Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
      Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
      Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
      Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
      Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

  9. 19/01/2010 11:31 pm

    @ Robotu… Thanks for your patience for my reply. In response:
    1. “1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.” You don’t seem to get it. We Christians love God because He loved us first. God commended His love towards us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Maybe I misunderstand you but you seem to be creating straw men. I am saying “1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.”
    2.Are you saying someone can’t know the truth?
    3. Are you saying you are an atheist? Generally a man’s morality dictates his theology. Drug dealers don’t like to see police. As far as using prison statistics…. It would be helpful for you to understand what a Christian is. Someone who is born again, growing in holiness. Someone who is calling themselves a Christian and living a continuous wicked sinful life would be a hypocrite (pretender), not a Christian in the Biblical sense. adica: 90% of Romania is supposed to be Christian, but we probably both see the hypocrisy in that.
    4.“1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.”
    Do you consider yourself to be a good person?

    • Robotu' de servici permalink
      20/01/2010 8:18 am

      @Jonathan si Andrea
      1. „We Christians love God because He loved us first” it is not an explanation, it is not an relation. It is a rationalisation (I think this is the term). It is apparently an explanation, but if you look into it with attention, the logical corelation is missing. Strawmen not included…

      2. There in not a unique truth or Truth. There are thruths (as in fact) that can be aknowledged.

      3. Yes, am atheist. But not because I don’t like God’s rules (jhaving a higher power can be reconfortating – an aid for the mind, actually) but because it is not real (there are not enough evidence).

      It would be helpful for you to understand what a Christian is. Someone who is born again, growing in holiness. Someone who is calling themselves a Christian and living a continuous wicked sinful life would be a hypocrite (pretender), not a Christian in the Biblical sense.

      Also, I can say (by this logic) that an atheist must be omly that person that is an humanist and respect humanistic rules as organic rules. Deviants are not true atheist…

      4. Yes.

      P.S. Sorry for errors, I wrote in hurry…

      • 22/01/2010 10:12 pm

        @Robotu…
        1.“1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.” Who said love was logical?
        2. Do you think the truth can be known?
        3. I can use such a definition in defining what a Christian is, because I am basing it on the Bible. The Bible makes it clear who is a Christian and who is not (read 1 John for many great examples). It also warns many times about false Christians. Because I am using the Bible as my reference, your atheist argument fails. Atheist’s don’t have a Bible, therefore when I want to know what an atheist is I look in a Dictionary. If you want to know what a true Christian is, look in the Bible for the definition.
        Here’s a cheesy example: What would you think if I told you I was a American history teacher; yet upon questioning you found out I knew very little about American history at all. You would have reason to hold me suspect. Yet, many professing Christians can’t even explain the major theme of the Bible, etc.
        As far as why you are truly a professing Atheist, only God knows your heart, and I leave the judgement of that up to Him. (See Psalm 14)
        4. “Have you ever….

        Lied?

        Stolen (regardless of the value and including illegal software etc.)?

        Used God’s name (the God who gave you life) in vain?

        Had sex outside of marriage? (Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.)

        Hated anyone?

        Been selfish?

        Unthankful?

        Had or supported an abortion and therefore committed murder?

        Let’s look at your omissions or negligence. Have you always…

        Loved God above all else?

        Loved your neighbor as much as you love yourself?

        Done the good that you should have?

        Been thankful?

        Been honoring to your parents?”

      • Robotu' de servici permalink
        23/01/2010 10:39 am

        @Jonathan si Andreea
        1. It is not about the nature of the love. It is about the human motivation. Love IS logical as a human motivator. Subject of love it is not always logical. So you cannot say that we love someone because he/she loved us first, because it cannot be hold true. Human motivation does not work this way. Being written in Bible it is not an argument for its validity, it is an argument that person X told so. You must make a difference between something true and something thought to be true.

        2. Yes, facts can be known. Ergo, truths can be known.

        3. First, a pedophile is described by dictionary as an criminal. But he himself (and his/hers peers) would NOT describe themselves as criminals!!! So an definition used by a particular group it is not always the best indicator of its true meaning. Another example – a lot of Christians considers that atheist mean satanist, oblivious to the fact that Satan is also an mythological supernatural being, and so it is in the scope of the definition (that does not believe in gods/supernatural beings).
        Moreover, if you want that I accept your self-appointed definition of Christian, them you must accept my self-appointed definition of Atheist: a humanist person that respect fully the humanist ideals. Ergo, I can reject any atheist that makes a murder – let’s say – as not being an true Atheist because it is not defined by my definition of Atheism. Do you see the difficulty?

        Second, you missed the point. My response was to your affirmation that a human’s morale dictates the theology embraced. It is at least naive to think so. Why do you think that a group have largely the same religion (directly proportional with the group’s cohesion)? Because an individual embraces the group’s religion (he was educated in that group). Only if the group has an weak cohesion – that allows the individual to be exposed to other POVs, information, religions, ideas, liberties, etc. – an individual can embrace another religion. So to say that atheism is because one does not want to obey the rules of God (or gods – remember atheism denies all gods) it is naive and unrealistic. A person can broke VERY WELL God’s rules believing in him in the same time (like those Christians that you say are not true Christians!). They broke the laws consciously, knowing that God is real, and had no problem with that. So this is not an motivator for Atheism. Ergo your explication is invalid.

        4. I was/am good. However, my definition it is not similar to yours. For example, to me loving an deity it is not an proof of goodness, but to love an god more than a close person (spouse/children/parent) it is a proof of evil. That means that you put your god’s best interest above those of your close fellows – and that it is an unforgivable „sin” for me.
        Moreover, i do not consider that by breaking only ONE instance of the „goodness rules” someone becomes evil like you suggest. Of course, that depends of the gravity of the fact (a white lie is not as grave as a murder). After all, if this is the case (as this point I speculate that you said this) you are no good (even the purest home is selfish because this is the way he is built or is lusting because hormones are ravaging his/hers body – even on subconscious level ) and there are not good peoples in the world (not event saints or Jesus if he had an human biological body).

        An interesting dilemma for you: if lying is evil and not helping your neighbor (especially in an critical case) is evil, if you had to lie without earthly consequences to an SS officer to protect you Jew neighbor, you’ll do it? Remember – to lie is bad. To let a man’s life to be taken is also bad (that man is a normal man, not an criminal or something). So do you think that there are smaller „sins” and bigger ones? The „sin” is the same in both cases?

        Extending: if the neighbor is an criminal, do you turn him in to be executed? Remember that you must love him as yourself. But if he is repenting?
        But if that man is persecuted by the law for his christian conviction (and nothing else) and assuming that the policeman sent to enforce the law does not know your christian affiliation? But if that man is persecuted ONLY for his Islamic convictions? Or even atheistic convictions – these 2 last cases implies that the Muslim and atheist man will not „repent” and become Christians, so you cannot convert them.

        „Morality” it is not only to obey a set of rules, but to discriminate (or – if you want – to „judge”) between practical cases that an human meet in his life. The rules are generic modes of behavior „skeletonised” because human variability is immense (every individual is unique). So an individual must embrace not only a „good” moral code, but also an „good” methodology to enforce that code. That is the domain where a moral human is proved.

  10. 23/01/2010 7:03 pm

    @Robotu….
    1.“1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.” I love God because he first loved me. This is true of many other Christians.
    2.How do you know them?
    3.It’s not my „self appointed definition” as you say. We find the definition of a true Christian in the Bible. You can start by reading 1 John.
    I said: „Generally a man’s morality dictates his theology.”
    I agree with you that many people believe something (or are the same religion) because it is there culture and they where born that way.
    You said”
    So to say that atheism is because one does not want to obey the rules of God (or gods – remember atheism denies all gods) it is naive and unrealistic. A person can broke VERY WELL God’s rules believing in him in the same time (like those Christians that you say are not true Christians!). They broke the laws consciously, knowing that God is real, and had no problem with that. So this is not an motivator for Atheism. Ergo your explication is invalid.


    Do you want to obey God’s rules? I think you know that God is real too. Just like the people in your example. You have creation, and your God given conscience. They say they believe in God, yet sin. You say you don’t believe in God, yet sin. If a man rapes and says He doesn’t believe in police… and another rapes and says he does… they are both guilty. Repent, and believe the gospel, because God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness.
    4.How did you do? Did you go through the questions? This is not because I want to say I am better than you. I probably have sinned much worse. The questions are for you to see yourself in truth (sinful and bad). Then understand your need for the Saviour. My sister, wrote the „Answer for Cancer” article on http://www.caleamaestrului.ro. She looks just fine in the picture, yet her body was filled with cancer. If she didn’t see her disease she wouldn’t seek out a cure. If you think you are good, you will not understand your need for forgiveness. You will not understand the love of God. Go through the questions again. … once you’ve done that, think about your sins then think about what God wrote in John 3:16,
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    then repent and believe this good news.
    And yes there are sins that are worse than others. If I sin against my wife I could end up sleeping on the couch. If I sin against my neighbor I could end up in jail. If I sin against a President or something I could end up with a even greater punishment. The greater the person I sin against the greater my sin/punishment. We’ve sinned against God, the greatest, and creator of all.
    5. Do you live in Bucuresti?

    • Robotu' de servici permalink
      24/01/2010 9:24 pm

      @Jonathan si Andrea
      1. I don’t think that you understood what I was trying to say. I don’t think that I have other means to explain that to you, so this subject is closed to me.

      2. You can know the facts by observing the nature an making an observation. Based on observations you can deduce things that are facts as long as are congruent with natural observation.

      3. Since you invested the Bible with an certain explicative power that I didn’t, the definition is „self-appointed”. Otherwise you’ll use the dictionary definition. Moreover, you agree with me that your definition is self-appointed when you say: „We find the definition of a true Christian in the Bible.„. Pay attention. The difference is very subtle, but exists!

      Do you want to obey God’s rules? I think you know that God is real too. Just like the people in your example. You have creation, and your God given conscience. They say they believe in God, yet sin. You say you don’t believe in God, yet sin. If a man rapes and says He doesn’t believe in police… and another rapes and says he does… they are both guilty. Repent, and believe the gospel, because God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness.

      Actually I don’t think that God exist. The inability to grasp a such concept (that someone can think that God it is not real) it is common among Christians and other religious peoples (it is not my first encounter with it). But stay assured, it is real, even if you cannot comprehend this concept.
      Police exist – there are plenty of evidence (uniformed officers, HQ’s, informations in the press, etc). On the other side, there are not independent verifiable proofs for God (creation, interventions, etc) or others god and deities (why you don’t believe in Shiva or Thor, for example?).

      4. Yes, I read your questions (some of them I followed, some of them not) . But those questions do not define if a person is good or not. For example to love god. An hindu is not good if he believes in God! Moreover, is evil – like you are evil in his/hers eyes if you believe in your god and not Shiva!!!

      I probably have sinned much worse.

      Not according to yours list. Or my list (I do not have enough informations to asses this).

      The questions are for you to see yourself in truth (sinful and bad). Then understand your need for the Saviour.

      Like I said, it does not applies to me. Moreover, how this applies to an Muslim or Hindu (rememeber, their gods are the real ones).

      If you think you are good, you will not understand your need for forgiveness.

      Let’s get straight something. I did not said that I am good in the sense that I am flawless, but in the sense that my good traits outweigh the bad one (even for an slim margin). There is no person in the that can say that it is flawless (or good after this criterion). And the vast majority of persons that I encountered it is also „good”.
      In your context, for a person to be „saved”, it must think that is evil? Or it is „evil”? Frankly, this has no sense unless you consider that only Christians can be good (and the rest of humanity it is not). This is a sad way to see the world (and nor realistic, also).

      And yes there are sins that are worse than others. If I sin against my wife I could end up sleeping on the couch. If I sin against my neighbor I could end up in jail. If I sin against a President or something I could end up with a even greater punishment. The greater the person I sin against the greater my sin/punishment. We’ve sinned against God, the greatest, and creator of all.

      Agreed. But the nature of sin is actually relevant here. If you cheat (sin) your wife, the punishment (coach treatment or divorce) it is not the same like when you kill your neighbor or your president. After all, cheating your neighbor or your president is is illogical (unless the president is your wife :). Also, if you kill your wife or your neighbor, the punishment is similar even if the subject of wrongdoing it is different, and greater than the punishment for cheating. Killing a president is a greater crime because that it is a murder in cold blood, prepared in advance and implemented rigorously (you can kill the wife in jealous rage or your neighbor accidentally or even premeditated, but to kill an president you must avoid a series of security obstacles very well implemented to reject normal threats – so someone willing to do this is an extremely dangerous – and deranged – man). So you see, the cases are not comparable.

      5. No.

      P.S. I am sorry for your sister. I hope she will be OK in the end and will have an long and happy life after hers ordeal.

  11. 07/02/2010 10:28 am

    @Robotu….I wrote a big response to your last post last night. Somehow it didn’t post 😦 . One of the main points was this: What you believe about the truth doesn’t change reality. 2+2=4 no matter what you or I believe about it. Adica: God exists no matter what you „think”. I know he does, and that is one reason I am reasoning with you. This applies to your questions about which god is God. It doesn’t matter what people believe about God if it is not true, it doesn’t change who He is.
    One other point I made that was very important:
    You said:”In your context, for a person to be “saved”, it must think that is evil? Or it is “evil”? Frankly, this has no sense unless you consider that only Christians can be good (and the rest of humanity it is not). This is a sad way to see the world (and nor realistic, also).”

    You seem to have Christianity confused. I’m not saying that only Christians can be good. My point is Christians are bad people who have been justified. You seem to have thought that your good outweighs your bad. Yet that is irrelevant. If I steal a car, and then do many good things, I am still a thief indebted to justice. Our good does not make up for our bad. Justice demands a payment. Doing good is merely what we are supposed to do. Here is God’s love toward us. We broke God’s law, Jesus paid our fine when He suffered and died on the cross in our place. Then He rose from the dead, and is coming back quickly. Repent (turn from you sins) and believe (trust) in this good news. As a Christian I am not better than you, I am simply much better off. I hope you will soon join me :).

    In regards to my sister, she will be ok, she has her sins forgiven and will live forever with God. God chose to heal her, and miraculously give her twin boys, and a loving husband.

    • Robotu' de servici permalink
      08/02/2010 8:35 am

      @Jonathan si Andrea
      I had the same issue once or twice. So i backup regularly when I have an large post and before submitting.

      God exists no matter what you “think”. I know he does,

      And as always, here lies the fundamental problem…

      It doesn’t matter what people believe about God if it is not true, it doesn’t change who He is.

      Actually, it does.
      If that god require a certain behavior (and the christian God certainly does), then acknowledging the wrong (image of) god is a capital sin. For example you believe a certain image of God (Yehova), but if the real god is more like Vishnu or Ra, you can have big trouble. I hope that the example mark clearly where is the problem in this situation.

      You seem to have Christianity confused. I’m not saying that only Christians can be good. My point is Christians are bad people who have been justified.”

      I often heard Christians saying that only Christians are (can be) good. So it is not an seldom case. However, the entire christian dogma is centered around the concept of sin that the man is bad by its nature. Your own words. Man is evil (bad), so he must become christian or burn in hell. Your default is „culpability”.

      You seem to have thought that your good outweighs your bad. Yet that is irrelevant. If I steal a car, and then do many good things, I am still a thief indebted to justice. Our good does not make up for our bad. Justice demands a payment.

      Actually is very relevant. Even Christianity acknowledge this (see the concept of penitence and redemption).
      But more important, I did not say that a good deed outweigh a bad one. A car that is stolen must be prosecuted with an appropriate punishment. A thief is not an murderer. And certainly is not a thief for being born.
      A person make good deeds and bad deeds. This is almost unavoidable. But he must try to make as many as it can good deeds, and avoid the bad ones (remember, the gravity of an act is not uniform). So, the person can be deemed „good” or „bad” through evaluation.

      I’m not saying that only Christians can be good. My point is Christians are bad people who have been justified.

      So you admit that there are persons that are good and not bad, in the same time being not Christians? Because if a Chrisitian is a bad person that is justified, then a good person can stay good and not being Christian (it is not excluded).
      However, that implies that:
      – there are persons that are good from the start (where is fit here the original sin?);
      – there are persons that became good without the help of Christianity.
      So Christianity is only an tool to „correct” the bad people? All Christians were bad initially (and many other non-Christians where good)?

      We broke God’s law,

      Can be disputed.

      Jesus paid our fine when He suffered and died on the cross in our place. Then He rose from the dead,

      Can be disputed.

      Repent (turn from you sins) and believe (trust) in this good news.

      You said earlier that I can repent without being an Christian… It still holds?
      Obs: every act of „goodness” can be made by an non-Christian as by an Christian. The only difference is when you mandate that anything regarding God is obligatory for being good. This is „stretching” the definition…

      In regards to my sister, she will be ok, she has her sins forgiven and will live forever with God. God chose to heal her, and miraculously give her twin boys, and a loving husband.

      This is very good.

  12. 12/02/2010 4:27 pm

    @Robotu… You said: ” It doesn’t matter what people believe about God if it is not true, it doesn’t change who He is.

    Actually, it does.
    If that god require a certain behavior (and the christian God certainly does), then acknowledging the wrong (image of) god is a capital sin. For example you believe a certain image of God (Yehova), but if the real god is more like Vishnu or Ra, you can have big trouble. I hope that the example mark clearly where is the problem in this situation.”

    That’s what I said. It doesn’t matter what you beleive (in the sense of imagination) about God if it’s not true it doesn’t change who He is.

    You said: ” You seem to have Christianity confused. I’m not saying that only Christians can be good. My point is Christians are bad people who have been justified.”

    I often heard Christians saying that only Christians are (can be) good. So it is not an seldom case. However, the entire christian dogma is centered around the concept of sin that the man is bad by its nature. Your own words. Man is evil (bad), so he must become christian or burn in hell. Your default is “culpability”.”

    I’m using the word „good” loosly here. Only a true Christian is justified and therefor good in the sense of righteous. Non-Christians can do nice things too. But it doesn’t make up for our transgressions.

    You said: ” You seem to have thought that your good outweighs your bad. Yet that is irrelevant. If I steal a car, and then do many good things, I am still a thief indebted to justice. Our good does not make up for our bad. Justice demands a payment.

    Actually is very relevant. Even Christianity acknowledge this (see the concept of penitence and redemption).”

    Can you give me some Bible verses supporting this?

    You said: „But more important, I did not say that a good deed outweigh a bad one. A car that is stolen must be prosecuted with an appropriate punishment. A thief is not an murderer. And certainly is not a thief for being born.
    A person make good deeds and bad deeds. This is almost unavoidable. But he must try to make as many as it can good deeds, and avoid the bad ones (remember, the gravity of an act is not uniform). So, the person can be deemed “good” or “bad” through evaluation.”

    If you cannot be justified through your good deeds, how will you be justified in the day of judgment outside of the propitiation of Christ? And as far as atheism is concerned, why must you do good things? What is your basis of good and bad?

    You said: ” I’m not saying that only Christians can be good. My point is Christians are bad people who have been justified.

    So you admit that there are persons that are good and not bad, in the same time being not Christians? Because if a Chrisitian is a bad person that is justified, then a good person can stay good and not being Christian (it is not excluded).
    However, that implies that:
    – there are persons that are good from the start (where is fit here the original sin?);
    – there are persons that became good without the help of Christianity.
    So Christianity is only an tool to “correct” the bad people? All Christians were bad initially (and many other non-Christians where good)?”

    Again I’m using the word „good” loosly here. Let me ask it this way: How can you be righteous in the site of God since you have commited sins?

    You said:” Repent (turn from you sins) and believe (trust) in this good news.

    You said earlier that I can repent without being an Christian… It still holds?”

    You can repent without being a Christian. Guilty lawbreakers do it all the time. But repentance without a propitiation will do you no good. If you turn from your sins that is nice, but your still have an outstanding debt to justice that needs to be paid. That’s God’s love towards us. We broke God’s law, Jesus paid our fine. Then He rose from the dead soon to return. Repent and beleive the gospel. Notice the admontion again: Repent AND believe the gospel.

    I’m not on my computer so my usual spell check isn’t on. I hope your able to understand this all. Thanks for caring on this conversation. We care about you and pray for you.

    • Robotu' de servici permalink
      12/02/2010 9:03 pm

      @Jonathan si Andrea

      That’s what I said. It doesn’t matter what you beleive (in the sense of imagination) about God if it’s not true it doesn’t change who He is.

      True. But it works both ways: what YOU belive about God, it doesn’t change who He is…

      I’m using the word “good” loosly here. Only a true Christian is justified and therefor good in the sense of righteous. Non-Christians can do nice things too. But it doesn’t make up for our transgressions.

      Please replace „Christian” with „Muslim” or „Hindu”. You will see the clearly the problem in your argumentation. Moreover, I think that you use an skewed term for „good”… WHY must God be involved? For example, I need no god to say if a person is good (or bad).

      Can you give me some Bible verses supporting this?

      There are many verses that recommends to repent. One flagrant example is that of Saul. He was an sinner, and repented after having an vision. And sinners will be punished (more or less), unless repenting. Actually the whole christian dogma is built around those concepts.

      If you cannot be justified through your good deeds, how will you be justified in the day of judgment outside of the propitiation of Christ?

      Assuming that this is true. But if Allah or Shiva will be your judge? Frankly, you will be in more trouble as believer in false gods, than I as skeptical atheist.
      You must define the premises… and if those are wrong, your conclusion will be also wrong, no mather how good is your reason. So be humble…

      ? And as far as atheism is concerned, why must you do good things? What is your basis of good and bad?

      My basis for good and bad is not in atheism because atheism does not describe such basis – it mens that you not believe in gods (descriptive, not prescriptive). My understanding of good/bad is funded on naturalism (I think): being good is an is a valid way to take care of those around you (like family, friends or society) because in this way you will also profit. If you like, is self-preservation. Help others so you will be helped. Be bad (or don’t help) and this will return upon you (sometimes harder). I think „karma” is much solid explanation than Christianity (minus the supernatural ballast – is pure and simple – an reaction loop; action and reaction). Of course, this approach does not always work, but in mos cases (so globally is a good approach).
      P.S. You you try to takeover the concept of „god/bad” and mandate that only Christianity offers an solution, when is obviously (and i mean empirically testable) that event non-Christians are capable of enforcing those concepts (or atheist). If you want to put God in it, please define another term, so that the people will not be confused…

      How can you be righteous in the site of God since you have commited sins?

      How can you be righteous in the site of Vishnu since you have committed sins?
      You my bad deeds must be sins (or good ones that does not correspond you concept of „good”)?
      I hope the problem is clear in your line of argumentation.

      You can repent without being a Christian. Guilty lawbreakers do it all the time. But repentance without a propitiation will do you no good. If you turn from your sins that is nice, but your still have an outstanding debt to justice that needs to be paid.

      The same problem, the same faulty line of argumentation. And another question: what is God’s gaining for our worship and repentance? What needs are satisfied? After all, he is almighty and all-knowing…

      We broke God’s law, Jesus paid our fine. Then He rose from the dead soon to return.

      Well, since Jesus was revived, the sacrifice is not so big. Most people does not have this chance… Moreover, if Jesus is God, he cannot really die (unless God is inconsistent and can create logical impossibilities) – after all, even „dead”, he is back in his rightful domain, the afterlife.

      I’m not on my computer so my usual spell check isn’t on. I hope your able to understand this all. Thanks for caring on this conversation. We care about you and pray for you.

      No problem, my „sins” in this regard are bigger. An observation: use the tags for formatting my replies (angular brackets like , then inside them use blockquote before commenting and /blockquote for comment termination). The result will be nicey.

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